Curse

Toxic RD · Dec 08, 2007, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Is anyone tinkering with a Necro build based around Icy Veins? It synergizes well with all the skills i listed, and im sure a fun sort of bomb-build could be made if someone with more knowledge than myself puts their head down and comes up with something

Icy Veins {E}

Putrid Explosion
Putrid Bile (More damage)
Necrosis (Quickly recharging damaging spell to trigger Veins, Bile, and Nova)
Rottin Flesh (Constant health degen that can potentially spread)
Well of Suffering (More constant degen)

Bargamer · Dec 13, 2007, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Icy Veins, Putrid Bile, Death Nova, Animate Bone Fiends, Signet of Lost Souls, Vile Miasma for starters. Then any combo of: Shambling Horrors, Verata's Sacrifice, Blood of the Master, Masochism, Jagged Bones, Rising Bile, Bitter Chill, and Deathly Chill, depending on area/campaign.
Monk Secondary for Rez Chant, Mesmer Secondary for Mantra of Inscriptions, Leech Signet, Power Drain, Echo/Arcane Echo. Pick your skills as you like them. I dislike Rotting Flesh, because it can spread back to you, that's the only reason.

Yeah, I've got a variation of this build working with my Rit/N Minion Bomber. You'd be doing it the other way around from me, but still solid concept. If you want Razah/Xandra to run the Bomber build too, keep in mind the AI doesn't manage Enchants very well, but they do have superior minion-targeting and interrupt abilities. Also, they have annoying tendency to corpse-steal. Boon of Creation, Spirit's Gift, Explosive Growth, Animate Bone Minions, Taste of Death, Putrid Bile, Death Nova, Jagged Bones, Bitter Chill, Deathly Chill, Vile Miasma, Shambling Horrors, Verata's Sac, Flesh of my Flesh, all are good skills.

What Campaign(s) do you have/plan to play this in? This will determine what kind of Necro build you have, and if you have Heroes or not.

Pyro maniac · Dec 13, 2007, 06:20 PM // 18:20

use that in AB

placebo overdose · Dec 13, 2007, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bargamer

Yeah, I've got a variation of this build working with my Rit/N Minion Bomber.

Icy Vein

.

uuumummm yeah 0 soul reaping makes iv very pointless

Bargamer · Dec 13, 2007, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Durr, the Icy Vein build is for the player himself. He's the one with the Necro-main. Learn to read more than just the first line. Editting my first post to make this clearer.

Xylia · Dec 13, 2007, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toxic RD

Is anyone tinkering with a Necro build based around Icy Veins? It synergizes well with all the skills i listed, and im sure a fun sort of bomb-build could be made if someone with more knowledge than myself puts their head down and comes up with something

Icy Veins {E}

Putrid Explosion
Putrid Bile (More damage)
Necrosis (Quickly recharging damaging spell to trigger Veins, Bile, and Nova)
Rottin Flesh (Constant health degen that can potentially spread)
Well of Suffering (More constant degen)

I use something like this sometimes (usually on a hero, but I have used it myself on occasion):
[skill]Icy Veins[/skill][skill]Putrid Bile[/skill][skill]Rising Bile[/skill][skill]Putrid Explosion[/skill](optional)(optional)[skill]signet of lost souls[/skill](optional/res)

Rising bile, putrid bile, and icy veins will all trigger on a death, and then you can hit putrid explosion right afterwards to add additional damage. If you find yourself in need of another heal, [skill]Taste of Pain[/skill] or [skill]soul feast[/skill] might be useful. If I'm running this on a hero, I add [skill]animate bone minions[/skill] and [skill]death nova[/skill] in the optional slots. On a person, I might add [skill]necrosis[/skill] and [skill]pain inverter[/skill] or [skill]great dwarf armor[/skill]

Moloch Vein · Dec 13, 2007, 11:24 PM // 23:24

A necromancer resorting to blowing up his most valuable assets in PvE strikes me as wasteful.

Bargamer · Dec 16, 2007, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Depending on the area/campaign, you might want one or more MMs, especially in Vizunah Square. Obviously, this won't work in corpse-scarce areas, in which case, switch out your Heroes/Henchies.

Oh yeah, forgot about Necrosis. That's tasty armor-ignoring spike damage right there, and it can trigger off Putrid Bile, Icy Veins, or any other hex, or poison/disease, which are Necro specialties.

Xylia · Dec 19, 2007, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

A necromancer resorting to blowing up his most valuable assets in PvE strikes me as wasteful.

Actually, what you're doing is trading an asset for a large spike of damage. Sure, there are other things you can do with it, but if that's what you want, then it's a fair trade. With the 1s cast time and 5s recharge, it can help with corpse denial to enemy MMs, as well. Obviously it won't completely eliminate corpses, but every corpse you blow up would be 1-2 less minions for the opponent.

Moloch Vein · Dec 19, 2007, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xylia

Actually, what you're doing is trading an asset for a large spike of damage.

No... what you are doing, if we are to compare to the most similar strategy, which is a minion bomber build, is trading an asset in the form of area-wide poisoning, two possible self heals and a two large spikes of damage for one slightly larger spike of damage.

The cost of your cycle for dispensing of the corpse is 10e. Mine is 15e+5*4 (if I decide to use all the steps in the outline.) It returns me 2xSR which is about 25, so I pay 15 where you pay 10. It also returns 2xSR to every other necromancer on the team.

What you get for 10e is 126 armor ignoring damage.

What I get for 15e is 210 armor ignoring damage, two shots of 15 seconds AoE poison and two heals of up to 340 hit points.

Marverick · Dec 20, 2007, 03:20 AM // 03:20

He takes 1.75 seconds to get that 126 armor-ignoring damage, you take 9.75. By the time you put Death Nova and ToD on all your minions he could have blown up another corpse and thrown some Necrosis around.

Xylia · Dec 20, 2007, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

He takes 1.75 seconds to get that 126 armor-ignoring damage, you take 9.75. By the time you put Death Nova and ToD on all your minions he could have blown up another corpse and thrown some Necrosis around.

Also, if there are any enemies that exploit corpses around, you only have a low chance of raising minions until you kill them. This is especially true in HM, where all the monsters are fast casting.

Also, you're trying to trigger several effects close together - it is hard to trigger more than one minion to blow up on queue (taste of death is about the only reliably quick way to trigger a single explosion). Putrid explosion is much more likely to be part of your icy veins + rising bile + putrid bile spike than a death nova. Death nova + bone minions is great for a pressure build, but I was looking more into a spike build.

Moloch Vein · Dec 20, 2007, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

He takes 1.75 seconds to get that 126 armor-ignoring damage, you take 9.75. By the time you put Death Nova and ToD on all your minions he could have blown up another corpse and thrown some Necrosis around.

How do you get those figures... Putrid Explosion casts in .75 seconds.

Animate Bone Minions + Taste of Deathx2 + Death Novax2 casts in 2.25+.5+4 = 6.75 seconds. Are you counting aftercast delay? In any case, yes, my cycle in a lot slower.

Chthon · Dec 20, 2007, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

He takes 1.75 seconds to get that 126 armor-ignoring damage, you take 9.75. By the time you put Death Nova and ToD on all your minions he could have blown up another corpse and thrown some Necrosis around.

1. You're answering one type of damage/resource argument (damage/corpse) with a different damage/resource argument (damage/cast time). This type of comparison is almost always going to be fallacious because the relative scarcity of one resource is going to make it the limiting factor -- the factor that matters -- and good efficiency in relation to the others is just gravy.

In the case of corpse exploitation by necros, corpses are usually the limiting factor. It's rare to get corpses faster than you can cast or faster than you can get the energy to exploit them. Simply put, you're not going to be cranking out 126 damage every 1.75 sec because you don't get a corpse that often. You're going to get the most DPS by maximizing damage/corpse; and damage/cast time is a total red herring unless you're looking for a spike (see 3 below).

2. Even if damage/cast time were the right measure of efficiency here (it's not), your figures are misleading. Both minions and the enchantments that go on them last a good while. This allows a MB to work in an "assembly line" fashion. Minions can be summoned at one time, enchanted much later, and blown up even later still. The timeline from "OK I want to do damage now" to that damage getting done can be as short as "Death Nova + Taste/Putrid" or even just "Taste/Putrid" because the MB already has minions in the pipeline.

3. Sometimes it's worth sacrificing overall DPS for short-term spiking power. But your spike has to kill something. If you're not taking a foe out of play sooner, you gain nothing in exchange for your sacrificed DPS. At a 16 spec, putrid bile + rising bile + putrid explosion will do a maximum of 335 armor-ignoring damage (if you kill the creature exactly as rising bile expires), and icy veins will add 116 armor-sensitive cold damage, for a total of 451 against AL 60. Unfortunately, most PvE foes have a lot more than 451 hp, and more than 60 AL. So, except for the rare situations where the mobs have effective healers you need to spike past, you'd be better off steamrolling with superior DPS than using lower-DPS, non-fatal spikes.
It might be viable as part of a team build dedicated to spiking, but that would require making the same DPS-for-spiking-ability trade-off on a team-wide basis, and would really ratchet up the price you'd pay for failed spikes.

4. Returning to damage/corpse as the best measure of efficiency for corpse exploitation, if you really want to go directly from corpses to damage, well of suffering is far superior to putrid explosion. At 16 spec it gives you 372 armor-ignoring damage with a larger AoE effect.

Xylia · Dec 20, 2007, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Unfortunately, most PvE foes have a lot more than 451 hp, and more than 60 AL. So, except for the rare situations where the mobs have effective healers you need to spike past, you'd be better off steamrolling with superior DPS than using lower-DPS, non-fatal spikes.

This is assuming that the targets are at full health when the spike begins. Since most builds provide some degree of AoE pressure, this is not normally thee case. This spike results in a quick finish surprisingly often, from my observations. I usually play SS (providing AoE, armor ignoring damage) and bring a channeling ritualist (AoE lightning damage) and the archer henchman (who uses barrage and volley in EotN) in addition to the IV spiker. While these AoE effects are being used, the other attacking characters (usually fighter hench and one other) do damage directly to the target. When the target dies, all the 'on death' or 'when spell ends' effects trigger, normally wiping out several other foes. If any stragglers remain, putrid explosion can put a quick end to them.

I tend to think of this as a closing spike rather than an opening spike, due to the delay required to set it up and get full effectiveness.

I might think about throwing in well of suffering to increase pressure, but it would probably require some micromanagement to make the decision if a corpse should explode or become a well. Adding edge of extinction might be something interesting to try, as well.

Chthon · Dec 21, 2007, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xylia

This is assuming that the targets are at full health when the spike begins. Since most builds provide some degree of AoE pressure, this is not normally thee case. This spike results in a quick finish surprisingly often, from my observations. I usually play SS (providing AoE, armor ignoring damage) and bring a channeling ritualist (AoE lightning damage) and the archer henchman (who uses barrage and volley in EotN) in addition to the IV spiker. While these AoE effects are being used, the other attacking characters (usually fighter hench and one other) do damage directly to the target...

So, basically, the rest of your party is doing all the work with steamroller DPS and your build is adding a finishing touch to foes who are already approaching death once every 20 sec or so?... I think you'd find the party would kill faster if your build was removed and replaced with another steamroller DPS build.

Bargamer · Dec 21, 2007, 03:34 AM // 03:34

I run MB, modified IV+ Death Magic Hexer + 1 Animate Shambling or Fiends, SF nuker, a Word Monk, and 4 henchies, never had any problems.

Let Xylia play how he wants to play. XD

Also, I don't think the OP has looked back at this thread again, so we're probably all arguing over nothing. XDDD

Chthon · Dec 21, 2007, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bargamer

Let Xylia play how he wants to play. XD

Xylia may play however Xylia wants to play. Xylia may not, however, encourage people to play inefficient, borderline bad builds on a forum dedicated to helping people improve at GW, at least not without me gainsaying him/her.

Xylia · Dec 21, 2007, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Xylia may play however Xylia wants to play. Xylia may not, however, encourage people to play inefficient, borderline bad builds on a forum dedicated to helping people improve at GW, at least not without me gainsaying him/her.

Just because you don't agree with the method of the build doesn't mean that it is inefficient or "borderline bad". Taking a group of foes from ~50% to dead is not a small thing. I constantly try new builds, but this is one that I go back to pretty frequently. From experience I can say that it works well for me, even in a lot of Hard Mode areas. If you give it a try and it doesn't work for you, then that's great. If you don't want to give it a try, that's great too. The OP wanted advice on and Icy Veins build from someone who was experienced the skills used, and that was what I provided. I can say that in most areas I would prefer this build to adding another "steamroller build" to the mix, as you say.

The numbers aren't the only thing to take into account with a build. You also have to take into account playing style, how the build synergizes with other builds, what the strengths and weaknesses are of foes in the area, and (on a hero build) how well the AI plays with the skills given. Since the IV build is relatively simple (cast all hexes on same target, blow up or animate corpses, rinse, repeat), the AI plays it very well.